Saturday, April 16, 2005

Hamas: more than meets the eye.

So, in my hunt to find new blogs, I came across, or Madtom did, Nadz Online. (See the link to the left, for future reference. )

Nadz, as I understand it, is a Palestinian/American woman, who has some very interesting ideas about being a female and a Muslim in America. [See comments. She says she doesn't consider herself a Muslim. I was wrong.]

Today, her post got me thinking. She wrote:

"Hamas' new "anti-corruption" unit (not the PLO's awe-inspiring corruption, but the kind involving women's ankles) killed a woman for walking in public with her fiance. You read that correctly. They then mutilated her body after shooting her, just in case the murder alone didn't convince you that they're a band of crazed, fundamentalist butchers."

Yes, of course, this is awful. Hamas doesn't have a monopoly on this sort of crap though. The Saudis regularly flog women in public for minor infractions and in some cases even behead them. [See The Religious Policeman for more on the Saudis.]

Yet, they are one of the U.S.' closest allies in the Middle East. We invaded Afghanistan partly to stop the Taliban from abusing women, supposedly. The only difference between the Saudis and the Taliban, though, is that they have tons of oil and they don't fight and die for their Jihad, they pay the likes of the Taliban to do it for them.

[See my post on the Saudis from last year for more on their very enlightened rule.]

I felt compelled to post a comment on Nadz's post because this issue is so complex, I felt it needed a little fleshing out.

And here it is: [Sans some bad mispelling and a change at the end.]

"Hamas is undoubtedly an "Islamic fundamentalists" movement, which runs counter to the secular nature of the PLO and Palestinian culture in general.

Just as the "Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt gained popular support by providing health care, education etc. because the government would not, so Hamas has taken advantage of Israel's crushing occupation and the inablility of the PLO to provide basic services, because of corruption etc.

More than just take advantage, I would point out just for historical perspective, that Mossad actually created Hamas as a divide and conquer strategy.

Events in Palestine don't occure in a vacuum. Israel is the most powerful country in the Middle East. Anything that goes on in the occupied territories, in particular, doesn't go on without Israel's okay.

From Global Research:

"According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association.

Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "

They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

Many horrible things happen in the occupied territories. An Israeli soldier pumping 15 bullets into a schoolgirl's head just to make sure she was dead is pretty horrific too. He didn't do it because of any religious conviction, but because ultimatly, the occupation has debased both Israel and Palestinian society. It's tragedy all around. There is a pox on both their houses. "

2 Comments:

Blogger Nadz said...

you make some good points - a lot of different parties are to blame for the current situation in Palestinian politics. I see the problem with Hamas as a reflection of the region's sad state of affairs in general.

just one point, however - I don't consider myself a Muslim. thanks for the comments on my site

10:25 PM  
Blogger bushmeister0 said...

This is the discussion going on at Nadz Online to my comments to "the truth about Hamas" post.

http://nadz101.blogspot.com/2005/04/truth-about-hamas.html

Ruth said...
buschmeister

You wrote: "Many horrible things happen in the occupied territories. An Israeli soldier pumping 15 bullits into a school girl's head just to make sure she was dead is pretty horrific too."

There has been an investigation and it turned out the officer was unpopular with his troups and they falsly accused him.

In Ma'ariv 28.11.2004: Soldier admits to lying in ‘child killing’ probe (sorry link no longer working)

"NRG Maariv: Soldier lied after intense pressure was exerted on him by “a number of people who wanted to frame the platoon commander”."

This incident has been discussed in depth here: http://forum.hagalil.com/board-a/messages/279/18112.html?1109075260

"He didn't do it because of any regligious conviction, but because ultimatly, the occupation has debased both Israel and Palestinian society."

Actually the officer in question was Druze not Jewish.

KAT said:

Bushmeister with his silly conspiracy...it's always the joos, not the actual perpetrators. No, it can't be your average Islamic Palestinian, they must be controlled by the evil joos.

There are evil and disgusting people in every society and culture. Trying to disown them and blame another culture is the tactics of morons. Accept it. They are who they are. Palestinians who happen to believe in an extreme ideology that thinks the best way to gain control is to kill and oppress. The same thing they claim about the enemy,

If the PA is so gung ho about freedom and libety, let them state publically that this is unacceptable. Until then, they are perpetuating their own oppression.

bushmeister0 said...

I don't wish to get into the typical Israeli/Palestinian shouting match, but I feel I must defend myself as I am being accused of anti-Semitism for criticizing the IDF, which is a part to the Israeli government, which, last I checked, wasn't the same as all Jews.

Many on both side of these arguments like to blur the distinction, but one must keep in mind, most of the worst critics of the Israeli government are the Israelis themselves.

(Nowadays, I guess Ruth would be accusing Revava and other settler activist groups of anti-Semitism for threatening violence against the government of Israel for the Gaza pullout plan? Where is the outrage about certain Rabbis claiming Jews killing Jews [i.e Arick Sharon] is justified when it comes to maintaining the settlements in Gaza?)

In any case, Ruth seems to be defending "Captain "R" for shooting a 13 year old Palestinian schoolgirl 17 times in the head.

Ruth said:

“There has been an investigation and it turned out the officer was unpopular with his troups and they falsly accused him.”

Based on what? The assertion is nonsense. Read your own link.

“NRG Maariv has also learned that R’s new attorneys plan a new line of defense. (His defense, not an official acquittal.) Among other things, they intend to point the blame at two platoon soldiers, who were supposed to stop the child, arguing they were the ones who shot her...

However... the above testimony contradicts the investigative report on Channel 2’s “Uvda” (fact), in which Captain R’ is allegedly heard on the army radio network saying, "This is the situation: We fired shots and killed her... I also verified the kill."

The link contradicts you're whole point.

There is a videotape of the entire incident. It has been seen in Israel and around the world.!

The Guardian of Nov. 24, 2004 reported:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html

"The tape... reveals that the soldiers said Iman (al-Hams) was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl.

He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.

The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post's operations room and the captain, who was a company commander.

The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."

Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.

The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."
The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.

Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times."

Is this what your defending?

Read my post again. Both sides have to come to terms with what has been going on.

Israel is the one who claims moral superiority because it is a democracy in a region of brutal dictatorships.

And what is the status of the Druze and other non-jewsih groups in the "Jewish State, anyway?" Are Druze less than citizens? That is the thrust of your observation that...

"Actually the officer in question was Druze not Jewish."

So are you saying because he was Druze this sort of thing is to be expected? Is it because he's of Arab distraction?

8:29 PM


RUTH said...

Bushmeister

Your "read your own link" is quite arrogant, you know, actually I initiated and wrote a significant part of the whole discussion.

If you could read German, you might have followed up on the HaGalil discussion and would have discovered that I have also seen the Uvda film and that's when I started the issue. However, it turned out later that Yael Dayan had heavily edited the video. For example the picutres showing soldiers having a good time where taken days later while in Uvda they were presented as if the celebrations were taking place the same day.

I have also linked to the Guardian article and analyzed it.

I have no intention to go throught the whole thing again.

As far as I can see there is no proof so far that Captain R has shot Imad 17 times to the head and according to the doctors' autopsy evidence he did not kill her since she was already dead when he approached her.

I am defending the defendent (assumed innocent until proved otherwise) against your slander.

By the way you contradict yourselves in your own posting:

1) "In any case, Ruth seems to be defending "Captain "R" for shooting a 13 year old Palestinian schoolgirl 17 times in the head."

2) "Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17
times.""

It looks like the exact facts are of no importance to you.

You mentioned unspecified religion in connection to this incident, that's why I felt it of importance to point out that the officer is Druze.

Your interpretation borders again on slander.

My previous posting here is too short to provide any basis for your inuendos. So do your assumptions about my political postion and my assumed arguments are again slander.

You'ld better watch your tongue and keyboard!

Bushmeister0:

9Who is this Ruth? Is it Richard Perle in drag?

Slander! Slander!

8:22 AM  

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